Uncertainty | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 115

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IN THIS EPISODE:

(AUDIO – 30 mins) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts go guest-less to discuss uncertainty, and health ways to manage it.

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Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.

For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com

Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:  

 

HALEY MOSS (HM):  

Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Hayley Moss, and attorney, author, artist and I’m autistic. Today I’m joined here by…

DR LORI BUTTS (LB):  

Hi, I’m Dr. Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney.

HM:  

It is so great to get to catch up with you.

LB:  

It is great. It’s been a while. How are things going?

HM:  

It does feel like a while. But generally speaking, things are going pretty good. It’s just been busy. 

LB:  

Yes, I watched you on LinkedIn. That’s how I seem to keep updated. And every, every day, there’s something new and exciting in your world, so it looks like…

HM:  

I never know what’s going on. But there’s always something new and exciting.

LB:  

That’s great. That’s a great way to be. That’s awesome. I’m proud of you. That’s really exciting.

HM:  

And then I feel like I’m just tired.

LB:  

Well, yeah, yeah. So that’s, that’s the balance, right? between, you know, work and putting yourself out there and doing all these wonderful things and taking care of yourself and self care.

HM:  

I think that’s also a good segue into even what we’re talking about today. Since we talked a lot on the show about self care. We do talk a lot about stress balancing like that. So we’re actually going guest-less today, which I always think is pretty exciting.

LB:  

Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s fun. I just tell people don’t get sick of hearing me talk.

HM:  

Honestly, they get the guest-less sessions are some of my favorite because I’ve said this many times off the air. And if you’ve never heard me say this on the air, I always feel like when we it’s just the two of us. It’s very like cathartic. Good. And it has this kind of like therapeutic quality to always learn something from you. Good. Oh, good. Oh, I personally enjoy it. But I don’t know if that means that listeners feel like they’re kind of along for the ride. Right? Or if they also get something out of it. I hope. Hopefully you’re getting something out of it. Like, I feel like I am. I hope so. But then again, last time, like, Oh my gosh, I learned something of how to like, set a routine better take care of myself. Something. So today we’re talking about dealing with uncertainty.

LB:  

It’s a big, big concept right now for the past two years. I

HM:  

mean, basically. Absolutely. And I think uncertainty is something different to everyone, whether it’s, are we going to go back to school? Are we going to have to wear a mask? Are we going to have to do this? Or is my Do I have security in my job? Or what about my relationships? I think uncertainty means so many different things.

LB:  

It certainly does. And I mean, one of the hallmarks, right for neuro divergence, it is difficulty with change and problems with change. But but the but it’s difficult for everybody uncertainty, and unpredictability is difficult for everyone. So I find it, I kind of find it fascinating that that’s kind of one of the criteria for diagnosing somebody with autism. But in when it comes down to it, you know, most people have have difficult times with dealing with uncertainty, and maybe change and uncertainty are two different concepts. 

HM:  

I see them as very different things. So I see like, change as something you know, is coming. And uncertainty is you know, that change is coming, but you don’t really know what it is, or you don’t, or that you know, or even not, there might not be a change, but you don’t know. So I mean, cuz I think of it a lot as a small business owner. And the biggest uncertainty, of course, is that month to month, everything looks very different. So you don’t have this fixed salary that the way you do when you’re working a traditional job, right? So you have months that might be really good and months, that might be really not as great and it’s not as consistent. So that that always feels uncertain as what am I doing? And you know that if and sometimes wondering, okay, if it doesn’t go my way, or I don’t hit the same prediction or things aren’t exactly the same and that way, how am I going to budget properly, etc, etc. So I think that when I think of uncertainty, because at least for a lot of folks, I think financial uncertainty is part of things. Maybe you had reduced hours or you might have gotten laid off at some point or you’re thinking how am I going to deal with this? Not so much that okay, this is a change that my situation has changed, but this is now not as predictable as it used to be.

LB:  

When I’m mentoring students and early career psychologists, that’s one of the biggest things that I have to bring to their attention. So everybody I get a lot of a lot of psychologists, you know, their dream is to have a private practice. It’s always like kind of the dream, but the reality is what you’re talking about that financial uncertainty is very difficult to navigate for a lot of people. And, and and it’s something that you don’t you don’t really think about when you? Well, it’s not on a lot of people’s radar. How about that when they are trying to decide whether or not to have like a corporate or a job for somebody work for somebody else or work on their own? And that’s, that’s huge. Haley, that’s, that’s a big, big issue.

HM:  

I think that nobody also prepares you for that. So I think about like, you’re saying that you have to tell early career psychologists about that. I think for any industry, no matter what you’re in, you’re not told like, Oh, this is not how it is, unless you’re someone who’s just signing multi year contracts, I guess. Right.

LB:  

Right. But even then, even those contracts, you know, can they

HM:  

can break them? Yeah, exactly. And all of a sudden, you’re like, Oh, my gosh, is this expected, right, X amount per month for like, three years or something is not happening.

LB:  

Right. Right. Right. Right. So how are you? How are you managing with uncertainty with all those,

HM:  

I feel like you have to roll with it. And I think, at least for me, and when we talk about it in that situation, like I’m doing the best I can, I am still making an effort to make sure that that’s not my constant situation. So I’m still like, marketing and still writing and doing other things as well, just to make sure like, I am doing my part to make sure that because you know how it is on when you’re on your own. Yet, a lot of it falls out that you’re both responsible for the successes and the failures, right? That except when it’s something that’s very beyond our control, so like when I first got started COVID head, and I couldn’t control the fact that there was no way I would have been able to go to all the business, like all the like conferences and stuff I had booked because no one was doing in person events. Right? That was beyond my control. But most things like at this point, because people know how to run virtual events, virtual events are still very popular. Things like that. That’s not that’s not beyond my control anymore. Right? Oh, at first I said, oh, let’s pivot to virtual, everyone was afraid. And that was really interesting to see. And that uncertainty is how everyone was really afraid. And now everyone’s like, Oh, my gosh, we need to do this.

LB:  

Yeah, that is interesting. Right? So that’s that that shift has really helped Be it helps make things predictable, and and make things happen that thought that they were we’re going to cancel. So I was just looking at my little cheat sheet about like the skills. And within that conversation, we just had you just listed like four different skills that you’re using actively to manage the uncertainty of running a small business. And so what, you know what, what you’re telling me is you’re doing these things already. So you have the skill set, and you’re doing those things already that, you know, psychologists are recommending.

HM:  

It’s super stressful, though. And I still feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. And I think it’s like, Okay, can I also have the, the cheat sheet that you were mentioning, and I think the and it’s interesting, because we talked about how we should take our own advice and like, reflect on our past successes, I find that so hard to do, because I think a lot of us also have this imposter syndrome of sorts to write. And we’re also a lot harsher to ourselves and we are to other people. So like if a friend came to me with this, right? Or there’s certain things that I feel uncertain about, I probably would give them much better advice that I would give myself because I’d be like, I don’t know, I know myself. I’m not the same as I don’t know, I guess. I think we’re very bad at taking our own advice.

LB:  

Yes, yes, yes. And that’s why it’s always a good trick to do that. To do to check yourself and say what I say this to a friend, because we tend to be more gentle to our friends and the people that we support than we are to ourselves. So that’s always a good check in like, you know what, what, what how would you support a friend is the same way you need to support yourself because you need to be gentle and kind to yourself just how you are with your friends too. And you’re, you know, seeking support from people that you trust, your avoiding dwelling things that you can’t control. control what you can,

HM:  

I’m doing the best I can. 

LB:  

Right, right. Being kind reflect on your past successes. You know, that’s important to really give yourself credit about the accomplishments that you’ve that you’ve done, and you know that your accomplishments are real and and that you can continue along. matpat you know, on our on our cheat sheet, we haven’t spoken about it, but you know, dealing with uncertainty just in the world, it’s really important to limit exposure to news that, you know, when dealing with with the pandemic, news exposures really. It’s, it’s important to be informed, but there are a lot of people that, you know, are their emotional state is being tied to, you know, what’s going on in the news. And that’s it. That’s, that’s a roller coaster. And yeah,

HM:  

I think watching the news can be super stressful.

LB:  

Yeah, it is, it is for everyone.

HM:  

And I don’t think it’s that we mean for it to be stressful. I think it’s just that we’re always like, there’s so much going on. Right.

LB:  

Right. And the advent of the internet with everything, like needing to be there, you know, 24/7, and in your face, and, you know, updates. And, you know, a lot of people get like news updates on their phones and be, and all these kinds of things. And I just don’t think it’s, it’s such a great idea to have all that because it’s anxiety inducing, and it causes stress and, and you can’t control it. You know, what you can control is focusing on your work and getting your work done during the day, not being distracted by these like, kind of mega things that are going on in the world that you have zero control over. When it comes to your actual day to day, well being in your life. But like, you know, here in South Florida, we’re, you know, on a bit of an alert for tropical storm or for her. Yeah. And you, you know, that you have to balance because you have to prepare, you have to make plans…

HM:  

Exactly I think the uncertainty there isn’t really that the there’s a change routine of oh my gosh, a big storms have been happening either. I think that uncertainty is what’s going to happen. Are we going to lose power? Or are we going to have trees down? Is my home going to be damaged? like not even just, Oh, my gosh, I have to prepare? I have to put shutters up all this like big routine change. When normally on a Friday, you might be doing something for your job. Or you might be doing something for schools that are like, Oh my god, I gotta go put shutters up. I think that’s very different than the uncertainty of how bad is this actually going to be?

LB:  

Right. Well, again, you focus on what you can control.

HM:  

Exactly right now, like, cuz I know with most of these storms, like my lights flicker a lot. Uh huh. Because I think my power grid is 2%. So I’m like, Okay, if I lose power, what do we do? And I have to in like, mentally I think having these kind of preparation plans helps a lot, like I have a spare batteries. I have a portable battery for iPhones, basically. Because I always take it traveling, because you can’t always like plug in your computer, or plug in like the little lightning thing. And when you have no power, right, and you need power. I have one of those. Like, it’s a little bulky, but I got it when I was traveling, mostly because I’m like, okay, I can’t always plug in on an airplane or something.  And, and now it turned out to be one of my essentials for storms. So it’s like, Okay, I have that I’m not gonna be out of communication. Everyone will know I’m okay. And then I didn’t like die in the storm. Because I have no power, and my phone died. I think it’s just interesting to think about, like, what I think again, it goes back to what we can control. And I think a lot of times, like making a list or having kind of some kind of having some sort of plan, especially the things that we know that we can’t always control. So we can’t control the weather. We can control we can control kind of how we adapt, I guess.

LB:  

Right, how we’re prepared. And then how we adapt if if and when it happens. So in the preparation is what you’re saying like thinking things through preparing, knowing, you know, okay, if the power goes out, this is my plan. I plug in my phone, I call my family, I’ve got a full tank of gas, I’ve got water, I’m okay. You know, those kinds of things, and then I’ll go, you know, x go to this place or whatever. Whatever your plans are, so that you just put it in action. So you’re not scrambling to make a plan after the fact everything’s prepared ahead of time.

HM:  

I kind of wonder how that goes for folks who have bigger executive functioning challenges. So I know, I have executive functioning challenges, but I like how I think balancing uncertainty along with that is so difficult. Because maybe you can’t you have that plan. Like oh yeah. I’m going to make a plan and then it just falls apart.

LB:  

Right. That’s, to me writing it down is important.

HM:  

If it falls apart. So I try to have certain things are all remember that I need to do this thing to make a plan very after the fact. So even the fat so I’ve been talking about doing. And I started this last week actually, of doing like a signed book program because people of course wants to buy books from me they want them signed. And of course, we don’t have any author events going on because COVID, and bookstores or bookstores, and they don’t want to have a group of people and virtual stuff. It’s like, oh, how do I you know, meet the author have that happen? It’s not like it used to be. And when your book is only being sold from the American Bar Association, because Amazon hasn’t quite gotten its partnership with National Book network. It’s a whole thing. People are like, Oh, I’d love to get a book. But I also want it signed. So I started like, Oh, yeah, I would love to do that. I would love to do that.

So I it took me forever to setup because I had to mentally go through the steps. And a little while ago, probably at least a couple months, my printer died after six faithful years of service after. And you can’t as you know, you have to generate shipping labels when you actually send things out. So having a printer is a good thing. So then I don’t really just annoy the guy at FedEx or the post office or pack and ship wherever its going, or making them manually input every address that I have to send things to it. When I’m sending out multiple things at a time, you’re really gonna annoy a clerk. So I’m like, okay, I should probably get a new printer. And I think I put off getting a printer for about six months. And then I realized one day, I was like, You know what? Now I’ve been talking about doing the sign book thing for like, three weeks now. Today’s the day I’m just gonna get a printer. And I shouldn’t have had this on this list of like, get a printer, get boxes or bright mailers or whatever, because I had bubble mailers, I had the foresight to buy bubble mailers, and not have the foresight to buy a printer, I did not somehow have the foresight to buy packing tape to you know, like, seal the mailers properly. And put the label on them. So I was like, okay, when we go to the store, when we go on Amazon, we’re going to order your printer, we’re going to order packing tape, it’s gonna be fun. And then we’re going to spend like God knows how long setting up a nice little order form that actually takes your money for us, because that makes my life easier. Because people, of course, are like, Oh, how do we pay it? It’s like, here, I take credit cards. And that took me a whole day to figure out It felt very stressful kind of setting this up, because it’s like, I want to help people. But also I had to sort through the steps and it took me way longer than it should have. And that feels and that makes you feel kind of inadequate, sometimes like this shouldn’t have taken long to get together, that it should not have been that it shouldn’t have taken me weeks to order a printer. Or to think to over printer.

And I think with executive functioning, you also get overwhelmed or like there’s so many freaking writers on the market. And I’m like, I’m just gonna get the one that looks kind of minimalist because my other one was really big and bulky. And I didn’t need all the extra features. Let me find something kind of minimalist because it’s going in my bedroom isn’t black because the black, add a big black printer and it my entire room is like these like pastel, bright colors and lock in my bed in dressers are white. And it really stood out in a funny way. I wanted a printer that was like silver or white or like some other minimalist color. So I found and of course I pile up stuff on it because it’s you know, not exactly a thing of beauty anyway, and I’m organized. So I’m like, okay, something that doesn’t take up as much space. So it’s like half as tall as my old one. And I’m like this works. I’m so proud of myself that I got a printer.

LB:  

Good, see!

HM:  

And I think that’s controlling what I can control even though and also be kind to yourself because I feel like at the same time like Haley, this took you six months, it took you five minutes to set it up. You’re like, Oh my god, it’s gonna take forever set up. I’m not a technical technology like guru. Oh my gosh, it’s gonna be terrible. It took me 10 minutes.

LB:  

All the apprehension, all those apprehension thoughts that make you put it off or put it off…

HM:  

Exactly, and then  you’re scared: what if it doesn’t work? And I already threw out the box because the box takes up too much space. And now I’m just trying to figure out how I’m getting rid of my old printer because I wanted to be environmentally responsible. And reset do e waste recycling because I’m right i don’t think belongs in like the dumpster. I feel like I vaguely remember learning that when I was doing ethics trainings in law school like yeah, you should probably get these things recycled because they may or may not have confidential data on them. And I was like, I doubt I have confidential data on my printer right now. But right, I should probably be in front of the environment. Now I’m like, great. I have to take this to FedEx. And it’s very heavy and I don’t have a box. And I and if you are familiar with my life, situation, I am not someone who drives and I don’t have a car and I’m like, Oh my god, how am I going to just take the package chip.

LB:  

Right.

HM:  

Like, I’m gonna need help, because I can’t carry this down like two flights of stairs, and like two blocks to get to UPS. It sounds terrible. Acknowledging you need help sort of as part of that uncertainty is like, when you’re like, I can’t do things by myself, because it makes you feel anxious. And sometimes it makes you kind of sad, because you’re thinking this should be something I should be able to do. 

LB:  

But then we revert back to be kind to yourself, because you can’t do everything. And that’s, you know, that’s acceptance. That’s fine. 

HM:  

Exactly. And I’m like, I didn’t realize how heavy this thing was.

LB:  

Right? Right.

HM:  

And I can’t just throw it in like the trunk of my car. Which means it’s time to make friends. 

LB:  

Exactly. Exactly. See good positive solutions to every every situation. But the thing to avoid is to beat beat yourself up.

HM:  

I will, because it’ll probably end up taking me another three weeks to drop. 

LB:  

Please don’t 

HM:  

No, because currently, it’s sitting in my kitchen, because that’s like the one place there’s like adequate space to put it but I’m okay. trip over it for a reason. So there is a giant bed printers. 

LB:  

Can I make hamburgers? 

HM:  

You know what, I could probably turn it into some kind of like press like the skip the old scanner. And it could probably be listed at a press. Like a waffle maker, or something who really knows. That’s really embracing the uncertainty as being like, you know, it’s been real.

LB:  

Right. Right, right.

HM:  

I think you kind of I feel like you have to laugh at her life a little bit. Because sometimes it just sounds completely ridiculous.

LB:  

You have that’s — that’s not on the list, but that to me is the most

HM:  

like I think we think of uncertainty in these very big picture things to like jobs and employment and storms. What if somebody’s health isn’t Okay, we don’t know what’s going to happen. Or how they’re going to feel in the next day or two. Or even a couple hours. Like I think there is that very big uncertainty feature. But I think the things that we’re uncertain about, like, oh, how am I getting to FedEx? I kind of can’t help but laugh. It’s kind of very trivial. In the grand scheme of things.

LB:  

As long as you have perspective on it…

HM:  

I think that’s what I’m trying to have perspective. So I’m like, Yeah, I feel uncertain a lot about work because you are responsible and being a small business owners exhausting. It’s in stressful in its own right, right. And then I’m thinking, Oh, how am I taking this to the thing? I was like, getting rid of a 20 pound printer.  Like, I’m like thinking about this, like, Oh, I’m thinking about like, Okay, I’m worried because I have family members who aren’t? Well, I’m worried because I have work stuff. I’m worried because whatever. are other things that feel uncertain, or are we going to ever get to go back to having anything in person ever? And then you’re like, yeah, we can save the bigger newsy conversations for later.

LB:  

Right? We got to focus on getting this printer out of our house.

HM:  

I can’t control the news. 

LB:  

Right. Can’t control the pandemic.

HM:  

No, but we can do our part individually. And that’s the most you could do. So if you’re able to get vaccinated, like, do that. And if you’re able to wear a mask and comply with local ordinances and stuff like you do that, you know, like you do what you have, you can control exactly like you might not be able to avoid getting COVID. But you might be able to do parts that will at least make it that you’re less likely. And if you are still super careful, and you still get it, then that’s not your fault. You idd what you could.

LB:  

Exactly. And they did the best that you could and the best of you code is different for everybody. And that’s okay. It’s the best that you could do. It’s not the best that everybody can do it everything. It’s the best that you can do within, you know, within what you’re capable of, or what you’ve got access to.

HM:  

I think that’s a good way to look at it. 

LB:  

And not putting more pressure on yourself to do things that are beyond your capacity or your control. And that’s, that’s, that’s not realistic, and that’s not helpful. And always asking for help is always the best. You know, at the end of the day, if you don’t know, you know, talk to somebody who may, whether it’s a peer, whether it’s a mental health professional, whether it’s, you know, parents or family members?

HM:  

Exactly. And there’s no shame in that. No, no, I think people always feel very nervous about talking to professionals or getting help if they need it. And there’s nothing to be ashamed of.

LB:  

And especially now with telehealth, I mean, access to care is easier is easier now than it ever has been. So especially for, you know, people that don’t have transportation or people that have difficulty in person. You know, doing telehealth services, has broken a lot of those barriers and made made mental health treatment more accessible.

HM:  

I think that’s a great way to see it as things are more accessible.

LB:  

And it doesn’t have to be forever, it doesn’t mean that you’re broken doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with you, it just need, we all need help and support in different ways about different issues, and at different periods of time in your life. So it’s not like something that you have to do forever and ever and ever. It’s like, oh, okay, I want to solve this problem. And then you gain skills and those skills, you can translate maybe to other areas of your life, too, if you’re focusing on, you know, managing stress, an opening a business that might help you manage stress in relationships, and manage stress just across the board. So that you gain the skills, you know, to carry with you for for the rest of your life. Definitely, yeah. Right now, there’s a lot of people that are feeling the pressure of uncertainty, and there’s a lot of increased anxiety and an increase in depression. So it’s really important. If these you know, General coping skills are not working, that you reach out and get help. Because, you know, there are there are lots of professionals that that are there to help. Everyone through this this period of time. Oh, definitely. I think we we solved all the problems of uncertainty, Haley.

HM:  

I think we did too. I feel like there’s I feel like you’re never going to get all of it. But I feel like that was a great start on feeling. Feeling like we got this.

LB:  

Yeah. And it’s not always going to be perfect. And you got to remind yourself of all these, you know, skills and things to do over and over again, but you just return back to them and get refocused and get back on on track.

HM:  

I think we got this.

LB:  

Yeah, I think so too.

HM:  

Go team. 

LB:  

Go you. 

HM:  

Thank you. I always appreciate that. And I think that’s a great note for our discussion is that whoever you are, and if you’re dealing with something that’s making you feel uncertain, whether it’s big picture world stuff, or small life things, or just general uncertainty, we’re rooting for you and get please get support or whether or talk to someone or do whatever it is that makes you and be kind to yourself. Yes. So we here at Spectrumly Speaking are rooting for you, and we’re proud of you for existing and doing whatever it is that you have to do.

LB:  

Absolutely. Absolutely.

HM:  

If you’re looking for more information, or you’re looking for more of us, or to be sure to keep this conversation moving, be sure to check out different brains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram @DiffBrains. And don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me I can be found at Haleymoss.com, I can also be found on all major social media. So I’m on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and would love to say hello to you.

LB:  

I can be found at CFIexperts.com please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.