Cover Image - Autism & Fandom, With Kelly Coons | Spectrumly Speaking Ep. 124

Autism & Fandom, with Kelly Coons | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 124

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IN THIS EPISODE:

(46 minutes) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with author and self-advocate Kelly Coons. Kelly is an autism advocate who studied English at Smith College. Before Kelly was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder at the age of thirteen, she had a coming-of-age story that was mostly deemed as neurotypical. However, she always felt isolated and, until her diagnosis, believed that she was to blame. After her diagnosis, Kelly became passionate about disability advocacy and promoting Autistic pride. She believes that people are disabled less by their bodies and brains and more by society. She is the author of the book “All Ways”.

For more about Kelly: 

kellycoons.weebly.com/allways

Instagram: @kellycoonswritesabout_____/ 

 


Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.

For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com

Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:    

HALEY MOSS (HM):  

Hello, and welcome to Spectrumly Speaking. I’m Haley Moss, an author, artist, attorney, and I’m also autistic. I am very blessed to be here on Spectrumly and have a co host who will introduce herself to you in probably about 30 seconds, maybe less.

DR LORI BUTTS (LB):  

Good morning. I’m Dr. Lori Butts. I’m a psychologist and an attorney.

HM:  

How are you?

LB:  

Great. How are you doing?

HM:  

Hanging in there. So I tried to get creative introducing you today. And I think I messed up the timing.

LB:  

The timing is great. Your timing is always great.

HM:  

I realized, like as I was saying, like, there’s no way this is going to be 30 seconds.

LB:  

Maybe five seconds.

HM:  

Exactly. A 30 second pause in recording time honestly feels like forever. It does.

LB:  

It does. It’s interesting how time is relative to what you’re doing. 

HM:  

Time is fake. Like, you know how when you think that you’re waiting for something to happen, Time moves really slow. And then you just do something else. They’re like, wait, what? I think about this primarily when I try to fall asleep. It’s like, okay, I’ll be asleep in like five minutes. And then all of a sudden, you’re just like, reading or you’re thinking about something or you’re doing scrolling and then all of a sudden it’s like two hours later.

LB:  

Well, yeah, then you gotta stop the scrolling.

HM:  

Yeah, exactly. Doom scrolling is a bad habit. Not just mine. But it’s a bad habit for many of us.

LB:  

Yes. So yes, there’s a whole generation of people are scrolling too much.

HM:  

Exactly. That are what’ll happen to me is I’ll be thinking as I fall asleep, they’ll be like, Oh, that sounds interesting. I should will that’s going to bother me. I need to find out about it right now.

LB:  

Yeah, well, what you should do is just write it down and wait till the next day, you know.

HM:  

I should write it down. Now forget about it. So thankfully, we don’t have to think about Doom scrolling for the right day. Because we have a guest.

LB:  

Yes, a great guest.

HM:  

And that is a lot more interesting. Then when you can’t fall asleep and you’re thinking about Wait, I have to do this thing tomorrow, or is my cat mad at me when she WAGs her tail? That’s the kind of stuff that keeps me from falling asleep.

LB:  

Alright, we need to do another episode on sleep.

HM:  

We’ve been having a lot of interesting topics come about before we hit record.

LB:  

Exactly.

HM:  

But we don’t want to focus on that today. Today, we would love to introduce our audience is somebody who is really interesting and who we think that you’ll enjoy just as much as we do. And today we are welcoming Kelly Coons and Kelly coons is an autism advocate, who studied English at Smith College. Before it Kelly was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder at the age of 13. She had a coming of age story that was mostly deemed as neurotypical. However, she always felt isolated, and until her diagnosis, believed that she was to blame. After her diagnosis, Kelly became passionate about disability advocacy, and promoting autistic pride. She believes that people are disabled less by their bodies and brains and more by society. She is the author of the book all ways. Welcome to the show. 

KELLY COONS (KC):  

Hello, hello.

HM:  

It was an absolute pleasure to have you on board for today. And to help give our listeners some context as well. Can you tell us how you became involved in the autism community?

KC:  

I mean, I, you said in the intro, I was diagnosed with autism at age 13. But I think I have somewhat of a unique experience insofar as I was already considered like kind of like autism adjacent. beforehand and not because I had a comorbid condition but because my two brothers had been diagnosed with autism before me. So I was already going to like Steptoe meetings and going to events for autistic people because my brothers were already going and I wasn’t just going to stay home. So it felt before my diagnosis, I always felt like Okay, I gotta hang back. Like, this isn’t my space. I think even when I was young, I always was trying to be conscious of giving people their spaces. But then I was like, Nah, I belong here now. So it was a relief.

LB:  

Can you tell us about your book “All Ways”?

KC:  

Certainly. So it is a young adult novel, about two autistic brothers coming of age during a road trip. keen eyed viewers might be like, hang on. You mentioned autistic brothers. Well, I happen to do have to autistic brothers and the base of their personalities were my brothers. But then I like mix and match and character traits. And then I was like, for the story, it’d be useful to talk about this particular issue. So people who know my brothers will maybe see hints of them in my protagonist Yokan, injurious but you’re gonna enjoy Yes. Oh, not versions of my own my own brothers. They are their own people who coincidentally don’t like road trips, neither of them do. So they wouldn’t want to be in this book anyway.

HM:  

That makes sense. I mean, I would feel pretty weird if someone wrote about me, even though it was like, in that way. So I’m glad that your characters have very distinct personality from your brothers as well.

KC:  

I’m still trying to get one of my brothers to read the book. He’s just not a big reader. And I’m like, what if I just stick one of my books in your backpack has gone to school? And he’s like, Well, I lose stuff in my backpack. I’m like, I’ll send you an email with a digital copy of my book. Like, I gotta get some quotes of him talking about it. So I can be like, hey, look, you know, basis of yoga says this, this, this book is good. What how you praise? Can there be

HM:  

Maybe slip an audio book in for him, then he can listen to it? Because for some people I know audiobooks are super accessible and fun.

KC:  

And I know also he has text to speech software. So hopefully the the formatting of the the Amazon ebook lesson to do the text to speech.

HM:  

And something else about your book is that some of the information that we have and that we’ve seen in the press is that the book talks about how it has something for both neurodivergent and neurotypical readers. Was that your intention?

KC:  

Yeah, I wanted to write a book about autism simultaneously about autism and not it not about autism. So I’ll explain what that means. So a lot of books I read growing up about autism weren’t about autistic characters, but more about neurotypical characters, looking at autistic characters and going man, that sucks. I’m sure glad that’s not me, which really not great when you’re reading that book? And you’re like, Oh, well, that is me. So I guess I just suck. So I wanted to be about autistic characters. But I also wanted it to be about characters who like don’t yet know that they’re autistic. So characters who know that they’re different, but don’t have the vocabulary to describe that. Because I think there’s a growing awareness of difficulty in accessing diagnosis. So I wanted to hit upon that even with white sis male protagonists, which both of them are,

LB:  

Can you talk a little bit abou: You mentioned, the book was helpful to, for people who don’t know that they’re diagnosed, but also the role about how fiction and your book can play in advocacy for autism?

KC:  

Yeah, I think that the stories we tell, create the reality that we live in. So if we tell stories about autism that are primarily tragedies, or primarily like cautionary tales, like oh, don’t do this, or you’ll end up like this person, then that sets up autistic people to be viewed as, as caricatures of Katie, essentially. And that’s really damaging. Meanwhile, if we tell stories about autism that say, you know, autism isn’t the problem, the problem is the treatment of autistic people, then that can change hearts and minds, and then that, in turn, can change policy. And, you know, it all starts with an idea. Nothing that exists was not at first imagined. 

LB:  

Wow, that’s really interesting. I am following you. And I mean, I think that, that it’s also more accessible and easier for people to — it provides a safer kind of entryway, that if I’m explaining myself, well, a safer entryway into the concepts when it’s fiction as opposed you know, an imagination as opposed to something that’s just kind of nonfiction, I guess, was the other word. Is that am I understanding that correctly? 

KC:  

Yeah, I think there’s also like, the fear of turning people off with like a lecture or like a lesson But meanwhile, if they feel like the lesson was something that they came up with on their own, okay, then it’s like, oh, I figured this out, go me, which, of course, like when any author writes something, they have a message that they would like to impart. Now, sometimes he doesn’t go through, and that’s a problem. But, you know, no author writes something in is like, I have no opinion on how my readers should view this.

HM:  

That’s, that’s really interesting.

LB:  

Yeah, it’s really interesting, because, I mean, Haley and I are both in the, you know, in the legal world, where everything is very fact based, and but it’s, it’s, you’re, you’re absolutely right, it’s so much nicer when you see a fictional story about something and then you come up with it on your own, and you’d want to root for, you know, root for people and, and, and you can see their plight, or you can see their experiences or whatever, it’s, it’s more emotional. There’s more emotional attachment to it, then there’s the lecture like you’re saying, you’re involved in it and their lives. And when you’re reading a story about people, you connect with them, and it’s, it’s more of an emotional connection. That’s really brilliant. I’m just kind of pondering that, because I don’t, I haven’t really thought about that. As a as a great advocacy tactic.

HM:  

I think it’s also safer for so many people to access fiction in that way. So I’m not sure how to word this. But I think about it a lot, because I have used these types of hypotheticals even illegal, like, imagine you’re a person who is x and y, like, I think the stakes feel low enough that they can empathize with this person, and that having to be afraid that they’re doing something very wrong, because it’s not a quote unquote, real person.

KC:  

I also think there’s like, a lot less reading material that goes into it. Like, when you’re reading nonfiction, sometimes you want to do a Wikipedia deep dive before we even crack open the book. But for fiction, generally, people don’t research I mean, unless if it’s for a class, but if you’re reading for pleasure, you might not even Google the author. Before you read it, you might see a the the title page and be like, That’s the cover of you like that sounds cool. So I think that’s valuable, like, time is a scarce commodity. And if you feel like you need to pre research something before even opening the book, then why would you open the book.

HM:  

I pre research things all the time. So don’t go by me. I also tend to research things in the middle of them, because I’m always afraid I missed something fundamental to the plot. Especially with movies, because there’s so much extra nuance that sometimes I’m like, I probably miss something. I don’t want to realize I miss, I don’t want to realize I missed something. When it’s over.

KC:  

I do those deep dives usually like right after, like, if I do the math, like fan fiction history. Like it’s like, I bought like a ton of incanto fan fiction after I finished watching incanto. Like there’s just discrete periods where I’m like, oh, all these bookmarks on a three year from, say, January 18. from Canton fanfics. I’m like, well, that’s right. I watched encounter the previous day. I was like, you can see my immediate timeline. 

HM:  

So gotta ask them based on your love of fiction and everything. What else are you working on? Are you working on something else new.

KC:  

Mostly just we’ll be working on finishing college applying to grad school. That’s like a full time job. Honestly, like being on campus takes a certain amount of time. Like you do is the time to figure out where your classes are to get to your classes to make sure you have your supplies for the classes. I can’t tell you how many times I opened my backpack and I’m like, huh, those are my Tuesday Thursday books. Today’s Wednesday I need to run back to my dorm grab stuff, which is why I have a bit of a habit of arriving the class like at least 20 minutes early because I forget stuff frequently enough.

HM:  

I feel like that’s neurodivergent Canada as you probably forgot something important even though you didn’t mean to. I and yes applying to grad school is a job. I don’t I don’t know what you want to go to grad school for right now. But good luck because applying to grad school is rough. I know Dr. butts and I could both talk about applying to law school probably and doctor but also went to grad school at the same time because she was a academic overachiever. And I’m sorry, every time I see the JD PhD thing I’m always like y’all overachievers?

LB:  

Yes. 

KC:  

JD and MD ones. 

HM:  

Yeah, I had someone in my law school class who was a dual JD MD, and he came to our law school after two years in med school, finished law school in two years and then went back to med school. He was in my first year of classes. And he was like, Yeah, med school is easier than this. And I was like, What are you okay? Like, if you if med school is easier, I’m pretty sure everyone here would have went to med school? 

LB:  

Well, it’s all about different brains. What’s easy for one brain is not so easy for another.

HM:  

He was casually able to do it all.

KC:  

Just had some people just are magic.

HM:  

That guy was magic for sure.

KC:  

People say magic doesn’t exist: you ever met a JD MD?

HM:  

I’ve met and I think there was someone in the class above me or two classes above me who ended up going to med school after law school. So yeah, JD and these are just like, definitely unicorns for sure. They exist very few and far between and not a lot of schools have a joint program that you can get both at the same time, but mine did. And I knew the one person who was in it. I digress. And, Kelly, if we want to know more about you and your work, how should we stay in touch with you? Or how can listeners find out more about always, and everything that you’re up to?

KC:  

My main social media is my Instagram. So that’s Kelly Koons writes about identity, it’s like five underscores should probably fix that. So it’s less vague. But hopefully, that comes up in people’s search boxes. But also I have a website, Kellykoons.weebly.com, which I populate with stuff about a page about my book, a page about the recent projects, I’m working on a page about the the podcast appearances I’m in. So that’s kind of like the one stop shop. If you find my website, you’ll find my social media, you’ll find my book links. But yeah, it’s easy. Just tell people one URL said be like, go here and then go here and then go here.

HM:  

You mentioned earlier that you love like fanfiction, and all sorts of stuff. So we want to talk about fandom in a neurodivergent safe space, I will admit, I do not know as much about fandom. As I do other things, I have a very good friend who is a big part of the My Little Pony Friendship is Magic fandom, and will talk my ear off about it if I let her. And if I have the spoons to essentially put up to like, Let not just put up with it, but to really try to engage because it’s so out of my wheelhouse. So I’m very curious to know a little bit more, because not only can I be a better friend, but also it’s just something I don’t know that much about.

KC:  

Yeah, I think there are two components to this. One how people project your diligence on to fandom characters, and to how the spaces that people make, in the admiring of a property fandom itself. A lot of the movers and shakers of that community are neurodivergent. And even the setup of fandom kind of encourages, you know, no divergent thought pattern, shall we say? So I’ll start with headcanon as we’ll call it. So that’s the practice of imagining a trait or circumstance on a character that you don’t necessarily see on screen or within the pages of a book. So like, new divergent head cannons are very interesting because, like, most properties, especially like in fantasy, like, don’t seem to have words to talk about disability or especially invisible disability.

So at the same time, as someone can argue there is no proof for instance, that Zuko from Avatar is autistic. At the same time, you can say, well, there’s no proof that he isn’t. And then imagining how that that invisible visible identity intersects with the story that you know, so avatar spoilers, Prince Zuko gets exiled. So in the context of the story, we know that Prince Zuko gets exiled because he speaks out against his father. But if we say that he’s also artistic, then we can say that there’s also you know, ableism within the structure of the Fire Nation, and that’s valuable to talk about because there is ableism in sections of power and ableism within royal families. I’m blanking on the name, but there was like a British royal, who we think now was probably autistic, who was like, just shipped away to the country and no one ever talked about him.

So that that’s a fun thing where fandom in a way can reflect history. And then there’s the circumstance of how fandom is organized. I mentioned a oh three that’s archive of our own, which is like the PMU fanfiction website. And okay, by our own organizes things, not only by fandom, we’ll use the avatar example again. But within avatar you can hyper focus on highly specific things you can search will only fix about Zuko. You can hyper focus on fix only about Zuko and May, you can also focus on go even deeper, go more specific and say, I only want to read fanfiction about Zuko and may and a modern universe with no powers. So that kind of encourages specificity of I’m looking at this particular show. But I’m also looking at this particular character in this particular show, I’m looking at this particular character in this specific imagined circumstance of him being in a moto in high school.

So I think that has the effect of the people who are really successful in those spaces. Insofar as proclivity, those who break a ton of fanfiction, for instance, tend to be neurodivergent, or use that type of neurodivergent traits, which now outside of fandom would be seen as a disadvantage to kind of have like a local celebrity status. If you’re known as the person who writes a ton of Zuko and may in modern high school, then in that very specific small community, you will be somewhat of a leader and someone who people look up to and then people who might model their own work after you.

LB:  

That can be a pretty powerful place for somebody to not only express themselves, but feel socially accepted. And, and, and, and get recognition. It sounds, it sounds really, like a really nice space.

KC:  

And online spaces can even translate into physical spaces. I know, Haley, you mentioned your friend who’s very, it’s My Little Pony. Something doesn’t get big enough that they have physical conventions, where they have take over, take over. That’s that’s a violent word. But they inhabit a beating space, like, like a convention center for conventions. And it’ll only be people who like My Little Pony. So these are like people who are self ascribe brownies or pega sisters, and people, you know, sell merchandise, there are people present presentations, like, not a ton into My Little Pony. But I know there are a lot of people who ask these types of cons, do things like, you know, sell shirts that they make, there are people who know present about like, you know, stuff that that maybe isn’t explicitly clear in the material. Like, there’ll be people who could probably write about like, kind of presentations about like, how Pinkie Pie could be seen as neurodivergent, or how the, we can read query beams on this property. So like, these phantom spaces, while they tend to originate in online spaces, can sometimes even reach into the physical world. Something

HM:  

I’m curious about, especially if there is that kind of online component. And then there’s that in some cases, like when we’re talking about my little pony that it does go to that physical world, especially for autistic people who I know are looking for that social acceptance or neurodivergent. Folks who want that sense of belonging. How does someone especially someone who is neurodivergent stay safe in this world of fandom?

KC:  

I think a lot of the advice that we get about general internet usage applies to fandom and sometimes you can feel like you want to bend the rules because these people feel like your friends and I’m not going to say that they aren’t your friends. believe that most people on the internet in fandom spaces are just legitimate fans, but there are always people who can always be a person or group of people who are there for, for bad reasons, not for the love of a property, but to take advantage of people. So the same advice of you know, don’t tell your age, don’t tell like where you live, don’t say what school you go to. A lot of people use like screen names. And even if you use the same screen name on different websites, then if that screen name doesn’t have an attachment to where you live, then you can have a name and identity that is separate from who you are known as in the physical world. And that’s liberating, but at the same time is also a tool for people who have bad intentions to hide who they are. So, you know, tread carefully. But I’m not going to say that it’s inherently a bad space or inherently dangerous. It’s fandom is no more dangerous than the internet in general. And I think at this point, especially in this current circumstance, we know that the internet, you need a certain amount of internet presence.

LB:  

Meaning you need a certain amount of internet presence for what what do you what do you mean, Kelly?

KC:  

Well, you need certain amount of proficiency with email or video conferencing, for instance, for work, so even if you don’t have a social media presence, which, for a certain generation, people need to cultivate a sense of like a marketing of themselves. Like a lot of young professionals are told you have to have a LinkedIn account to get a job. Which I don’t think that’s right. But I think there is data say, people don’t people who have a LinkedIn account are more likely to get a job, young people who don’t buy but even for people who aren’t settled in their jobs and aren’t planning on changing jobs, they need a certain amount of digital literacy. So one can even say that getting involved in things like fandom gives them better digital literacy skills, which can in turn, help with with workplace.

LB:  

That makes sense, it’s like a safe space to practice those kinds of skills, or a safer kind of space to practice those skills to move on, I understand what you’re saying, yeah.

HM:  

And I think especially for young folks to get involved. So I know when we’ve talked about online advocacy, and advocacy with a previous guest as well, I always make this point. So we do have younger listeners, or we have parents who are listening to. And I always make the point that especially if you have children at home that might be interested or that you think this might be something they’re interested in, that have those conversations at home and monitor as you please again, I know we have all sorts of different rules regulations in the United States about Children’s Online Privacy. So most forums and things you can’t sign up for, unless you’re 13 or older. But I do know that there are certain things that might be distressing, or that we have to also have open communication. So when we have young people and their families, I think it’s really important that we have that component to to also help them stay safe. Because digital literacy and online safety sometimes is something that’s really paramount in our community. And I know it’s very easy, especially with something like fandom to easily let your guard down because you want to be accepted. Or there’s someone who genuinely cares about this thing as much as you do. But you might not be aware of that there is a major age difference.

So you might be say, 15 years old, and you’re connecting with someone who is my age, I’m 28, or I’m going to be 28 problem. I’m not 20 I’m sorry, my brain is really out of it today. But I’m going to be 20 I’m gonna be I’m 27 I’m going to be 28 in July. But my point is that connecting with someone who’s 15 years old, when you’re in your late 20s might not always be appropriate in other contexts. And in fandom, for instance, or online world, you might not realize that age difference or that it could be potentially dangerous or that they may or that these young people may be exposed to themes that might be different than what they’re used to at home or something like that as well. So I don’t know the extent but I just want to make that note for families to be conscious of children’s online activity to make sure that they’re staying safe. And if you are a young person and are in an uncomfortable situation, because of something that you’ve experienced online or as part of a community that please don’t be afraid to talk to the adult in your real life outside of the internet. And I think that’s something that I always make that point I always feel like kind of the big bad wolf every time I Say it, but I always tried to do it because I know that it’s very easy to be very trusting.

KC:  

Yeah, and I also think that like, especially for parents who This wasn’t part of their, their social landscape growing up, I think parents might mistakenly think if I just don’t talk about it, then my children will not be aware of it. Which saying out loud, that doesn’t sound quite right. But like making something into a taboo, doesn’t make it something off limits. Like having an open conversation about something makes it more safe, then making it something that you don’t talk about. Because silence can be misconstrued as, as misunderstanding, as you know, if you have, and if you are a child who feels unsafe and infinite space, but you think you’re guardians, you don’t understand or, you know, then that then that’s, then you’re not going to feel comfortable reporting something that doesn’t feel great.

LB:  

I also think that that that’s, it’s also can be confusing, because it might feel fine. And that’s the other point where, you know, the person may not even recognize that they’re being manipulated or things like that, not, you know, so that it is an important conversation for parents to have with their kids. And also, to explain that there are times where somebody is paying attention to you, and it feel feels good, it feels fine, but that person may not have best intentions.

KC:  

There are professionals who specialize in teaching about digital literacy and facilitating conversations between parents and children, which I don’t think that’s any of us. But they’re all resources you are not, you know, in an uncharted frontier,

HM:  

That is good to know. I just worry a lot about young people, because I know how impressionable and sometimes desperate for friends that we are, and I’m, I’m just worried that the wrong person will put someone in a dangerous situation. That’s just where I come from.

KC:  

And that’s certainly a valid concern. Which is why like, my opinion of fandom is, it can be great. But you have to be careful, as you know, you even have to be careful in physical schools, too. Oh, of course. Yeah. Like, I’m not gonna say it’s more dangerous than physical spaces. I don’t think that’s true. But I think I think that there are unique challenges in both.

HM:  

And I think there’s also those challenges when you are in a fandom and it does have one of those like conventions or physical spaces when you’re translating something that’s online into the real world, too.

KC:  

That’s why for a lot of conventions, most legitimate conventions, they’re they’re informal gatherings, which I would suggest avoiding. But that’s why conventions are held in public spaces. With often God’s presences and some conventions even say, like, minors have to be accompanied by an adult, like most conventions do say that. So that these people who run conventions have relationships with with venues and venues have a vested interest in keeping all those involved safe. Like honestly, the conventions. I find. When you’re in a group, especially with if you’re a minor with with an adult. They work very hard to make conventions very safe spaces.

LB:  

That’s a very great point. That’s yeah. You’re right. The side the side not approve, things are probably something that everyone should stay wary of. But yes, that makes that makes a lot of sense.

KC:  

And physical conventions. The last convention I went to I know, they, when they came out the schedule, they said like Rec and recommended age knee ranges for different events. Okay, and then there were some events like I think events after 9pm were like 18 Plus events, where miners just flat out weren’t allowed, because a lot of them. There were also some 21 Plus events that had drinking, but those were at night. And those were like once they made sure they were no more miners in the building.

LB:  

Oh, that’s great to know that they’re really mindful of that situation. 

HM:  

That is a relief, because I wish that most typical conferences and events did that sometimes, like at least especially the things that might be involving alcoholic, it would be nice in certain spaces where you might have younger folks.

KC:  

Where they’re expecting alcohol, and they’re like, oh, no, yeah, no, I’m, I’m thinking, this was I think Anime Boston, which is a big convention in the Northeast. And I think conventions like fandom conventions have a lot of awareness of these issues, because something like, for example, a metal pony convention, will attract adults, but also will attract a lot of children. So there’s a lot of questioning about how do we keep these these young fans safe? And what kind of events can we have that are, you know, particularly for young fans? I think in this case, there weren’t events that were like, you know, kids only which I would say, don’t you don’t want those those minors separated from their, their guardians. But there, I know, there were a couple of events that said, like, I think I went to a panel about Godzilla, the history of Godzilla. And I think they marked it as like an event for like teens and older because Godzilla has, you know, a lot of violence. And then there’s also a lot of talking about like, like Monster monster movies in general. And like, the political purpose of monster movies. So that was kind of more like a college seminar type thing. I’m the person who likes to go to go to conventions and go to essentially, you know, seminars, but you know, they’re at a conventions are also things where they’re like, costume contests. And, like anime music videos, there was one event I went to that I know was, like Disney music videos. So it’d be Disney clips, and then there’d be like, a song played over it. So that one was, I think, marked for, I think they were like suitable for all ages. So that was fun.

HM:  

That does sound fun.

KC:  

Like I think, in person conventions have kind of an undeserved reputation as scary. But I’d say a lot of times, they’re safer that then then online fandom spaces, because they need to be in a physical space. And people, their personas fall away, and people have to come as they are.

HM:  

And there’s also a liability component, I’m sure, but that’s also just the lawyer in me thinking. I’m sure Dr. Buck probably had the same thought deep down about the liability.

KC:  

Yeah, I know, for conventions, there was a lot of vetting of who gets to present at a convention, a lot of work that goes into security of the convention. So yeah, physical convention spaces are pretty safe. But the scariest thing about conventions is the possibility of getting lost. Which is a real, which is so you know, keep in a group, even when you all adults go in, have a buddy system have a place that you meet up, if you all want to go to different panels, and that’s fine. No one else wanted to go to Godzilla, the politics of Godzilla with me. So we had a thing of, okay, we’re all going to meet back in front of like the stalls, the, the Moche stalls at 12 because someone’s event ends at 1130. And another person’s ends at like 1150. So We’ll all meet it at noon. That was,

HM:  

I think going with a friend or another person is probably another really good idea as well.

KC:  

Even as an adult, I have yet to go to a con by myself because personally, I’m terrible with directions, and to just be sensory space of a lot of people around and a lot of people who may not shower, like that’s not unsafe, but it is unpleasant. Like, legitimately at like every intersection, there was a little screen to like, remember to take a shower at least once a day. Like that’s the thing about contacts. The worst part about cons to me. But, but yeah, I would recommend even as an adult, go go with a buddy. Go with someone you know, and if some if it’s someone who doesn’t particularly like fandom stuff that I take them out for dinner afterwards, you know, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I like your thinking. Yeah, because I think I think even people who aren’t interested And, you know, should have a vested interest if you say, I want to be safe in this big public space. You know, you can just, you don’t have to do this with me. But, you know, can you sit next to me while I listened to the seminar about the politics of Godzilla?

HM:  

And I think that certain spaces in particular are probably also a little bit more accessible and approachable for the more casual fan or someone who doesn’t know as much so I think something like when you’re talking about, say, anime Boston, there’s probably more something for everyone then one of like, when my friend goes to just the pony conventions. 

KC:  

There’s a ton of different cons of different sizes, Anime Boston, which was pretty big. I’ve gone to Hartford Comic Con, which is pretty small. And hopefully Comic Con is actually mostly a place where you buy merch, which, if that’s what you’re there, for console, it’s great, you find a lot of cool stuff. But, like, look for conventions, you know, in an area you can access, look for conventions that have events that you’re interested in. A lot of conventions now have like gone online, so you can turn your camera off. If it’s too much. You don’t need a costume, which you don’t need a costume for any con, never let someone tell you, Oh, you can’t go to that convention. Because you don’t have a costume. There are no rules against not having a costume

HM:  

That I think is especially important for our neurodivergent friends to know is that there are no specific rules on that. Even if someone seems to be pressuring you like that might, they might be afraid that that’s an unwritten social role or something as well.

KC:  

There is no problem with not wearing a costume. Wear what makes you comfortable and what best facilitates your movement through the space. No one is going to stop. You say Excuse me, where is your giant animes? Or? No one’s gonna say that. In fact, a lot of conventions do not allow prop weapons. for ethical reasons. I’m sure you know,

HM:  

That makes sense. I would probably be a little freaked out if someone I think I’d be a little freaked out if someone came up to me with a giant anime sword.

KC:  

I mean, they’re all made of like cardboard. Anyway, like, go to a convention there will be different. A lot of conventions have two different lines, one for people in costume. And when people aren’t in costume, so the in costume line, they have to check all your props and make sure that like, no, they’re not real. And like, is there anything hidden in them? So you actually might get into the cop the con quicker if you aren’t in the costume one. Fun fact.

HM:  

So what is the biggest thing that you want us to know about fandom or possibly for neurodivergent folks in particular, so what’s the biggest thing that you think is the most important for us to know

KC:  

That fandom is a space for you to explore your own identity exploring stories. But make sure you have like a physical, physical rope that leads that leads back to to your life. Make sure no one cuts your rope. Make sure no one asks to use your rope that rope is for you. No one needs to know what age you are. No one needs to know what school you go to. And if you don’t want to meet someone in person, then you do not have to. Fandom should be a fun place. And if a fandom stops being fun for you, whether that’s the particular people in your community, you’re just not into the original source material anymore, then there is no no problem with leaving and finding something else. That’s fun. I think particularly in small fandom spaces, people can get nervous about, you know, one of the few people leaving, but fandom is not your job. fandom is meant to be fine.

HM:  

I think that’s a great note to think to end on. Especially when we think about interest and hobbies and things like that. These are things that are meant to be fun. And if they’re not fun, that’s when you know, to kind of know when to step back to walk away or realize it’s time to explore something else. And I think that’s a really great note for us to end this conversation on as well. So, thank you again to Kelly Coons for joining us. If you want to connect with Kelly, be sure to check her out online and on Instagram. She is again the author of the book all ways which you should also take a look at. I see it’s available at most major booksellers when you google it as well. If you for the rest of us, be sure to check out differentbrains.org. Check out there Twitter and Instagram @DiffBrains. And don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me, you can find me at Haleymoss.com, or you can also say hello to me on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.

LB:  

I can be found at CFIexperts.com Please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going

Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.