Cover Image - Autism Career Pathways, With Maisie Soetantyo, M.Ed. | Spectrumly Speaking Ep. 114

Autism Career Pathways, with Maisie Soetantyo, M.Ed. | Spectrumly Speaking ep. 114

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  IN THIS EPISODE:

(AUDIO – 37 minutes) In this episode, hosts Haley Moss and Dr. Lori Butts speak with self-advocate Maisie Soetantyo, M.Ed.. Maisie is an autism self-advocate, and the founder of Autism Career Pathways, a nonprofit organization with a mission to provide a platform for businesses and communities to access resources and learning content for better recruitment, retention and reward opportunities for neurodiverse hires. She is also the founder of CATCH Clinic, which provides parent training to families across the US and internationally. Maisie is a professional in the field of autism for close to thirty years. She is also a Different Brains board member.

For more about Maisie: autismcareerpathways.com 


Spectrumly Speaking is the podcast dedicated to women on the autism spectrum, produced by Different Brains®. Every other week, join our hosts Haley Moss (an autism self-advocate, attorney, artist, and author) and Dr. Lori Butts (a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist, and licensed attorney) as they discuss topics and news stories, share personal stories, and interview some of the most fascinating voices from the autism community.

For more about Haley, check out her website: haleymoss.net And look for her on Twitter: twitter.com/haleymossart For more about Dr. Butts, check out her website: cfiexperts.com

Have a question or story for us? E-mail us at SpectrumlySpeaking@gmail.com

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:    

HALEY MOSS (HM):  

Hello, and welcome perspectively speaking. I’m Haley Moss, an attorney, author, advocate, artist, and I’m autistic. Today I’m joined here by my co-host, Dr. Lori Butts.

DR LORI BUTTS (LB):  

Hi, I’m a psychologist and an attorney.

HM:  

How are you doing?

LB:  

Good, how are things going with you? I can imagine things are really, really frantic or stressful or fun or all the above.

HM:  

It’s been a very interesting time. We’ve talked about the last couple shows, we talked a little bit about my book. So I’m trying to get things moving there, do some programming related to that, and I got sidetracked because of all the really interesting guardianship and conservatorship issues with Britney Spears. I know a lot of lawyers were really kind of interested in that rabbit hole, but I think as someone on the spectrum, this isn’t something that’s new to me. It’s just been really interesting getting to analyze it, and I actually got to write about it for Teen Vogue, which was really cool. Yeah, so that’s kind of what I’ve been up to. It’s been really exciting, and I know that Dr. Butts has also been super busy. Today, we have a guest and we’re both really, really excited about today’s conversation. Today we are welcoming a friend of the show and somebody new to us, we are welcoming Maisie Soetantyo. If you don’t know Maisie, Maisie is an autism self-advocate and the founder of Autism Career Pathways, a nonprofit organization with a mission to provide a platform for businesses and communities to access resources and learning content for better recruitment, retention, and reward opportunities for neurodiverse hires. She is also the founder of CATCH Clinic, which provides parent training to families across the U.S. and internationally. Maisie is a professional in the field of autism for close to 30 years. Welcome to the show.

MAISIE SOETANTYO (MS):  

Well, thank you so much for having me, Haley, that was a really great intro. So I don’t think I have anything else to add to that other than I’m very late diagnosed autistic mom, advocate, parent and professional trainer. I have sensory processing disorder and dyscalculia and other things commonly associated with autism. So I am, I feel like I’m the whole package because if all of this.

HM:  

I am so glad that we have you. It’s really an honor to get to speak with you. We asked this of all of our guests when we first get started. How did you become involved in the autism community? You’ve mentioned, you’ve been in the field for over 30 years and that you were late diagnosed

MS:  

Yeah, so, it’s very interesting. I think because I am autistic, I think working with special needs kids has always been my special interest. One of my very long standing special interests is autism psychology, the study of human behaviors, and sports watching. Not sports doing, sports watching. I just came across autism as an undergraduate at UCLA. I fell in love with the autistic students in this classroom in Los Angeles, where I got to volunteer and work under a great teacher. Many of those kids in that classroom were part of the UCLA’s Young Autism Project with Dr. Ivar Lovaas, so I know a lot about behavioral interventions. That’s how I got into this field, and I left it completely after doing that method for about 12 years. Also, I think, because I’m autistic, I didn’t know it then, but I just intuitively knew that doing any kind of therapy aiming to change the true identity of a young person is absolutely not right. I switched gears completely and got trained in a relationship-based model called RTI, Relationship Development Intervention, and did that at CATCH Clinic. We had been doing a coach only, working with parents at home and helping them to empower themselves to really raise their neurodivergent kids as best as they could. I love it as a mom. It makes sense to me, then my little kids grew up. I mean, not kids, well they are kind of like my kids – my clients. I’m talking about my clients, my little clients grew up. It was heartbreaking for me because they are highly talented. They’ve worked hard all their lives, and they can’t even get a summer job working at Domino’s Pizza because they couldn’t pass the interview process. That’s why I decided to make a difference, and that’s why I set up the nonprofit, Autism Career Pathways, in 2019. 

HM:  

Can you tell us more about that, actually? I would love to know more about how Autism Career Pathways helps people, especially when we’re talking about workforce. So what you were saying about interviews is really resonating, and I kind of want to just keep going with that.

MS:  

Sure. ACP really wants to figure out how to support and educate in the creative and non traditional ways. So there are a lot of skill trainings, vocational trainings, all these inclusivity trainings done by large companies. I want to go the opposite. I want to educate our community. I’m talking about the dry cleaners to the bakery, the mom and pop shops in our community. I really believe that people don’t know what they don’t know, so if every store and every small business owner really knows that they can hire autistic freelancers. Many autistic people don’t want to and they can’t work full time. You know this. Myself, I love working from home. I’ve been working from home.

HM:  

You were working from home before it was cool. I remember talking to you pre- pandemic, and you were working from home.

MS:  

Exactly. And it’s been so great. I can show up to work in this format, at home in my slippers. It’s just, it’s the best way. Then when I do leave the house, I visit my clients at home. It’s a comfortable environment also for me. So anyway, so ACP, that’s what we’re trying to do, and the way we try to engage with our community is by hosting fun events.  I don’t want to host events that just have people or parents walk around and collect brochures. For example, I want to host fun events that would get the conversation going. We hosted recently, in May, with Caitlin Stamos, and she’s a celebrity,  an actress, a model, and a writer. We did this Instagram Live with 14 autistic makers, not just art, just different kinds of talents. It was hugely successful, it was engaging was so sweet. I also represent non-speaking autistic business owners. That’s really important for me. I feel like I can’t advocate the way I’ve been doing, but it’s a privilege to do that. I have a special interest and passion to represent other fellow autists who need higher level of support, and that goes the same for helping them to show their talents. In our events I want to share our stories, just spotlighting that autistic adults can be great role models for autistic kids. The event we’re hosting right now, Cultivating Autistic Enterpreneurship – which you’re going to be one of our presenters, and I’m super excited about that – has the same message, don’t put us in a specific box. Don’t assume that we cannot do certain things just because we communicate differently.

HM:  

I’m so excited for that. I saw that you have like a Shark Tank-type competition for autistic entrepreneurs and small business owners. And yeah, I don’t know. I just thought that was so cool.

MS:  

Thank you. I think it’s gonna be great. It’s just that it’s a lot of work behind the scenes with the video editing because all of the autistic presenters, of course, we all have panic attacks, doing things live. So everyone wants to be recorded, pre recorded, which is great. It has a lot of benefits. Also, we can control the flow, and you can edit and so on. It has a lot of work behind the scenes, but it’s worth it. It’s always worth it.

HM:  

You just amaze me. Since you do so much, can you also tell us a little bit about the CATCH Clinics too?

MS:  

Yeah, so at CATCH Clinic, that is our parent training clinic, we actually provide parent guiding, basically. I used to train professionals in Asia and the surrounding countries. Asia is a big place. So when I was working as an auditing consultant, that was my training region. I train professionals working with autistic kids –  MDs, psychologists, speech therapists, occupational therapists, social workers, teachers – to really help them understand a different kind of model, not a deficit model, not a pathology model, when they’re working with their clients. A lot of it involves undoing what they’ve learned because that happens every day, right? You are a professional, you have a full caseload, and you’re still implementing or setting goals that are very much ableist based, and I’m trying to change that. So that’s CATCH Clinic. Nowadays, I just do a lot of online trainings for parents or for businesses wanting to learn more because I that’s basically what I can do. I do what I can as much as possible.

HM:  

I think you do plenty. 

LB:  

Yeah. Sounds like you do a lot.

MS:  

Yeah, I just feel like it’s really hard to make a difference if you’re goal is to change the narrative and the landscape. I’m talking about changing everything, or influencing change, for the lifespan of autistic people’s life. And that’s really hard. You know that. It’s just so much work to be done, right? All over the place and across different age groups. So I just hope that we can all make a difference, like really make a difference, you know, somehow.

LB:  

That’d be very nice. Switching gears a lot. I understand that you were recently diagnosed with autism. What was it like for you after working in the autism community for so long, and then getting that diagnosis.

MS:  

Oh, it’s been so incredible. It’s actually an interesting story. So I know a lot about working with autistic kids, teens, and young adults. My lens has always been that I take pride in being able to provide an eclectic type of support. I always learn new things, and read, and all this stuff so that I can better support my clients, but it’s always for other people. Now I know, I think, I have always had this restless soul, if you want to call it that, like I’m searching for something, but I don’t know what it is. Well, it could be my ADHD also. I always have a project. That’s just my nature. I always have these ideas and things to do, you know. I think part of it’s like I feel like I’m looking and searching for something for myself. In 2019 when I started the nonprofit, before that I took a year off to just really talk to autistic adults. I put everything aside. I want to learn from other autistic adults. Then, autistic people would interview me, and at the end of the interviews, they would say, “Are you sure you’re not autistic yourself?” I was always caught off guard. You know how autistic people know how to find others. We just know. We just have a sense, right? So then I was like, well, okay, let me just figure out if I can find someone, a clinician who can properly diagnose me. I went to my health care provider. No one in my area, San Francisco Bay area, could diagnose an autistic adult like me with a price tag that I can afford.

So, I had to go to Canada. I found an autistic clinician. Some of the clinicians hear in the US need to see me in person. I was very happy to find my clinician, and she was so awesome. So that’s really the whole story. Once I got the formal diagnosis… actually, as I was filling out all the the intake questionnaires, it was so many questions and doing all this, then all the pieces came together for me because as part of that I had to interview like people who knew me since I was a little girl. So I interviewed my best friend who knew me since I was five, you’re five years old. And then, and she didn’t know anything about autism, you know? And when she described how I was, at that age, I was like, Oh, my God, really? You know, cuz she was saying, Oh, you were you were very quiet. And you always played with your hair. You know, you were very uncomfortable. And honestly, I still hide behind her. Yeah, yeah, it’s kiss you let me and she helped me learn, like a lot of the social stuff. And I also had learning challenges, which I hid really well, you know, like I had, I have dyscalculia. So like, I really fail all of my math subjects, and are anything that has that have to do with numbers. So once I got that formal diagnosis, I told my husband about it. And he was like, well, one year after we started dating, I suspected that you were

MS:  

like, how come you didn’t never really share that thought with me? Well, because I think you don’t want to hear something. When you’re not ready to hear it. So you don’t want to hear it. You know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, any kind of say that. Exactly. Absolutely. And, and, and then now I know, I’m constantly walking around, and then saying, Oh, yeah, aha, that makes sense that this happened in the past. Like, I know, now there’s, like, mourn or no divergence in my family. Just across generations, like a lot, many, many neuro divergence, like more neuro divergence than neurotypical. So it’s strongly rooted in our family anyways. Yes, so that’s, that’s the story. And it’s been great to unlearn and learn about myself from the inside out. I think that’s still new. So I’m very thankful for other autistic people, advocate advocates who really helped me. You know, still in this journey. It’s never too late to discover yourself and you have self acceptance. That’s really important. Yeah.

HM:  

Congratulations. I feel like that’s the best thing to say is like, that’s such an exciting thing is when you discover yourself and you notice about yourself, like I know when most people get diagnosed with things the neurotypicals like, Oh my gosh, that must be really traumatic. And that must be really hard. And my first thing though, oh my gosh, I’m so happy for you. Congratulations.

MS:  

It is happy. And and I house you know, um, I mean, my kids kind of make fun of me from time to time because I am definitely quirky in front of my family members just because they’re my safe zone. People and My daughter was my 16 year old was recently interviewed on the topic of my autistic mom, which is really sweet. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I wish every family has this family identity with an autistic loved one, and just part of our language part of our family culture. But I know that’s, that’s unique, you know? Yeah.

LB:  

Wow, how can how can people learn more about your work amazing.

MS:  

So our nonprofits website, autism, career pathways with an s.org, that’s where people can find our activities. And come join this event that we’re hosting, I’m hosting the cultivating autistic enterpreneurship, with about 20 other autistic adults, that’s never been done before. And what we want to do is provide ideas and share our stories and really provide a roadmap in and what’s exciting about this event, now we have an angel investor who will give $1,000 for one best business idea, like business pitch. So anyone has an idea, whatever that may be, I actually have a lot of ideas, but I can’t enter the I cannot enter the contest. You know, so for any anyone listening to this, you know, join the class. And we also have, I want to invite professionals working with autistic people. So I have reserved some free seats, because we have sponsors now. Yeah, and this next class is about self discovery. So we want to talk about stress and anxiety, we want to talk about, you know, sensory differences. And knowing all this ahead of time when you’re a young person is so important, because then you can think ahead and really have a different a better roadmap as an artistic person, you know, and not waste your time to go to school and to get a degree and you realize why can’t work in that environment. You know, so that’s the goal beneath the goal is to really build that organise much, much early on.

HM:  

You are awesome. Yeah,

LB:  

yeah, you really are. I’m not too I haven’t done anything.

HM:  

Yes. Yes. Yeah, I think thing is that a lot of autistic people don’t think they’re doing anything. Because we’re told there’s such like, low expectations of us. We’re like, yeah, we’re just living our lives. And it’s like, no, but you get to do something really cool. And I think that that’s the weird thing I think about autistic people is we Yeah, we A lot of us are exceptional, because I think we have to be, because I feel like you don’t really get to be average. Because look at how society views autistic people is that you either are so incapable of doing anything, or you’re just exceptional. But I genuinely do find that a lot of people in our community are really exceptional. And they’re changemakers. And they’re thought leaders, and it just continually amazes me. So I don’t say that lightly. Well,

MS:  

thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it’s it’s a passion of mine. And sometimes it feels like, wow, there’s just so much work to be done. You know, can I do this? Can I really make a difference? You know, I have made you can like that. Yeah, you are, and you can.

HM:  

So that kind of brings us to our segment. So if you want to stay for conversation, then you’re more than welcome to if you have to go and run off this morning, I totally understand. But we wanted to talk about how people can pick careers. So we’re talking about helping people get jobs and find long term careers, because we all know that having a job kind of is, you know, the first step, it’s not really like the end all be all for everyone. So I was really curious, how did everyone decide what they want to do? How can people find their passions like something in that? How do we pick careers? And how do we find careers? It’s just, oh, it’s just something that’s floating around my head, especially when we talk about today we talk about all sorts of this cool stuff with business and entrepreneurship in our communities. And like, wow, there’s just so much to unpack here.

MS:  

Yeah, so that’s actually an interesting question because I am very passionate to help figure out meaningful employment pathways for people who are more significantly impacted by their autism conditions. I feel like number one how what it means To be working or to be out in the community has to be has to come from that person. So a lot of times it’s driven by well intentioned family members, right? You might have some autistic adults who flat out said, I just can’t work, I don’t want to work. I want to I prefer to live on disability, you know, um, but I think what they’re saying is that, I can’t do this, because I don’t have the right kind of support. It’s so true. Yeah, to be able to be successful. Right. So for example, I know so many talented autistic women, you know, they make stuff jewelry, take, you know, do photography, and their work is incredible. But they can’t even run a small business because they can’t drive or they have extreme, like, sound sensitivity, they can’t go to the post office to send, you know, their packages, for example, you know, running a small business, however small that is, it’s not there’s a lot of behind the scene that you have to be able to do with, you know, a lot of executive functioning stuff, you know, and, and, and then the sad thing also, I think, many people, just the world in general, they don’t know that artistic talents exists. They don’t know. You know, so. So we try to list as many artist autistics business owners, I think, Haley, you’re on our lists on our website.

HM:  

I am a business owner, too. And it’s really stressful. But I think you really hit something when you said that a lot of people say that they don’t want to work. But it’s not even that they don’t want to, it’s that you don’t have the vocabulary to say that I can’t or that this is so hard for me that it’s feels insurmountable.

MS:  

Right. And

HM:  

I feel that not just about work, but a lot of things like I struggle a lot with things like executive functioning and cleaning and driving. And yet sometimes the only way a neurotypical person will understand that is if you say, I can’t or I don’t want to,

MS:  

yeah, because it’s scary.

HM:  

But I don’t want to the only thing that makes sense to them. Like, it’s not that I don’t want to try and exert that it is so much of a sensory anxiety provoking thing that I just yeah, I, it’s, instead of explain that you just go oh, I don’t want to do it.

MS:  

Right, because that’s what makes sense. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think self advocacy is a huge issue because of unfortunately a deficit model that, you know, being autistic or be, you know, ADHD or like, all of this developmental diagnosis of neuro neurological diagnosis is being looked at, as, you know, you you’re less served version than a neurotypical and you need years of therapy or you need medication, this and that, yes, you might need all of that. But I think, um, you know,

HM:  

we’re not like broken neurotypical people. Yeah,

MS:  

but but parents also are given the pathology, pathology model, you know, inflammation, that’s, that’s the kind of stuff they read. You know, on the internet, Facebook groups, it’s, it’s very scary, you know, for parents with newly diagnosed a newly diagnosed child, because there’s really no one really tell them it’s gonna be okay. You know, that your child is autistic. It’s a different developmental trajectory. That’s it. You know, you have to unpack it as soon as possible by actually learning from autistic adults. And two sick adults don’t have don’t always have a great track records as advocates, as you know, the autistic and autism community. It’s quite divided. So it doesn’t help. It doesn’t help parents of autistic kids to want to learn from autistic adults at times so we can be part of this. not helping voices. Okay, so I digress.

HM:  

Don’t worry, don’t worry about being with autistic people. And that’s why most of our people are autistic that we have on the show. And Dr. butts is our friendly neurotypical in the room. Yeah,

LB:  

just redirect me.

HM:  

Do I look, I’m always here for the info dump, but it makes me really excited. Okay, I can’t even remember what you were talking about careers and finding passions. And all right. So again, kind of shifted back I think even, can I talk to bots? How did you get into being a psychologist given that you like me also went to law school?

LB:  

Well, I was in a joint degree program in law and psychology. So when I was in college, I really couldn’t decide whether or not I wanted to be a lawyer or a psychologist. So then I applied to a joint degree program. So I went to law school and grad school at the same time. And then what happened was psychology, you have to do two years of supervision before you get licensed. And so I finished up my last my laws, stuff took the bar, and I started another year of residency, it’s called and, and then I wanted working for Dr. John Spencer, who was the greatest mentor of all time, and I didn’t leave it. So there wasn’t like a, an active choice, it kind of just kind of all happened. So that’s, that’s my story. It’s not, it’s not following. It’s a very different story. It’s not, it’s not one I recommend to other people, just kind of accidentally falling into a career. But that’s, that’s how it happened.

HM:  

I feel like I ended up in law school, I still sometimes feel like, I don’t know how so? Well, I just knew I wasn’t going to be a physician. Okay. And I knew that I like to write and I like to talk and lawyers can make a difference. And I was like, Well, I guess I’m going to law school.

LB:  

Oh, that’s a perfect match. That’s a perfect, perfect match. And then

HM:  

I realized that I actually enjoy making a difference more than lawyers do on the day to day.

LB:  

So here we are. And you’re making a huge difference. I mean, your your file that I mean, you are, you’re inspirational, you’re following your passion, you’re really doing what, you know what you’re good at what you enjoy, and what you love, and you’re making a big difference. Both of you are it’s really beautiful. It’s wonderful.

MS:  

Thank you. Can I just add one more thing about that question that I forgot about career pathways? Sure. One thing that’s really important, is really nurturing your own special interests. I think everyone needs special interests. You know, and I think a lot of the focal point of raising a North average child a lot of times is heavily, emphasis, emphasis, have heavily focus on therapy, and improving speech, and behaviors and so on. And so that at the end of the day, you know, everyone’s exhausted, if you’re a mom, you Your role is the driver, like taking, like you’re an ultimate ultimate juggler, right. And you don’t have time for self care, special interest and your child, your autistic child really, really needs that safe zone and be able to stay at home or collect things or cuddle with their stuffies. You know, that’s really, really important, I think. Because having a special interests like Haley, you have a ton of sexual interest in it to it has given me the ability over the years to really have an icebreaker, when I talk, for example to like new dads that I work with in the other side of the world. And because of my special interest in sports and basketball, I can always talk to anyone you know, it’s a great icebreaker. It has given me a platform and a way to connect with my community who are similar minded because of my special interests. It’s really, really important and I always tell people, okay, if you have special interests, it doesn’t mean that you can maybe make a career out of it. But it gives you possibilities. So you don’t have to put your eggs in one basket. You know what I mean? I think that’s a really important message that I want to tell people parents especially to really be a good detective to really nurture special interest. I love that title. Sometimes special interests can start from like a parent who enjoys a particular thing and they’re sharing it with their kid and then you know, it becomes a special interests like my special interest came from my dad, like introducing me to sports when I was a little girl because he wanted to have like quality time with me and I I was not interested. But yeah, but I have fond memories of us watching like Muhammad Ali, and all these badminton superstars, you know, like, I still do that, like, I watched that I watch any kind of sports, you know. So that’s really an important message, special interests and how to nurture that as early as possible.

HM:  

And it’s so cool. I’m just like soaking it all in, like, I got to process this for a minute. But you were just so full of wisdom, and I love getting to learn from you.

MS:  

Well, thank you.

LB:  

I agree, you’ve got a you’ve got a lot to give.

HM:  

I think we have a pretty good note to end on. Because I think that even talking about our passions and our careers, I think this was really, really powerful. And please, thank you, again, to Maisie and the folks at autism career pathways. Thank you all for all you do. You’re cultivating autistic entrepreneurship course is going to be a huge resource in our community and seeing that collaboration with so many different autistic adults and different industries and different pathways. I think that’s really, really powerful stuff. So please make sure to check out Maisie and all of the work that she’s doing with autism career pathways. As for the rest of us, I think Be sure to check out different brains.org and check out their Twitter and Instagram at difference and don’t forget to look for them on Facebook. If you’re looking for me, I can be found at Haley moss dotnet or you can also find me on all major social media.

LB:  

I can be found at CFIexperts.com please be sure to subscribe and rate us on iTunes and don’t hesitate to send questions to spectrumlyspeaking@gmail.com. Let’s keep the conversation going.